God does not answer prayer

By darklady --

The other day I went to see a friend I rarely see (due to distance). An hour into the conversation we finally got around to addressing what was staring us in the face, my unbelief. I was bluntly asked where my relationship with god was. I answered, just as bluntly, it does not exist. I said it was zilch, kaput, gone, and that there was no god.

This was met with almost comical open mouth horror, as this was a friend who had relied on me for spiritual advice for years. One I had spent hours with discussing god and the bible. And now I was saying there was no god.

Let us by pass the next few moments of utter disbelief, and my friend realising that I had said this almost unimaginable (for her) statement, and move on to the real point of this.

My friend cares for a severely disturbed girl (about 8 or 9 years old). This girl is almost unmanageable and cannot be left alone as she will self harm. The conversation turned to prayer, and I was challenged on my stance that god does not answer prayer. I looked at the young girl and thought, why not?

So I throw down the gauntlet, and said that if she really believed that god answered pray, then she would pray that god would heal her young charge. My challenge to her was, that if you believe in prayer, in miracles, that god is a god of love, that the bible is gods word and he keeps it, then pray for her healing. Right here, right now.

The moment was almost breathless, while I waited in anticipation for her reply. Would she rise to the challenge, or not? My friend looked at the young girl, then looked at me, and said ‘but god may not choose to heal her, he may have other plans for her life’. And then she talked about how god has used this girl to show my friend things in her life.

Excuse me, I thought. Was my friend saying that god will not heal a person who lives with disabilities, pain and suffering , who burns, cuts and mutilates herself and just so another person can lean say, patience, or learn some other useful ‘lesson’ in life.

I was disturbed, not just by what was said, but that once I would have thought the same. The ability that we have to justify actions or non actions of others, including’ god’ is simply terrifying.

By the way, she promised to pray for me as I left. I replied to her, "Don't bother."

Reflections on the Story of Job

By WizenedSage (Galen Rose)

I recently reread the story of Job (King James Version). I cannot recommend it to you. That some people hold this story in reverence frankly astonishes me. The short version of my critique of the Job story is this: it is boring and morally disgusting.

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The long version (but not nearly as long as the Book of Job itself) follows. I am aware that I have only scratched the surface of the inconsistencies and grotesqueness of the story, but I didn’t want to bore you with endless details. However, I welcome your own perspective on the story.

The Story of Job was clearly intended to teach the lesson that man must continue on the righteous, god worshipping path no matter what life hurls at him, but it also teaches that the righteous life will not necessarily protect one from evil. In fact, god may well bring evil to the righteous man as he feels no compunction to deal fairly or justly with humans. It teaches that god can be frivolous, capricious and contemptuously disrespectful of man. Nor does he feel any need to explain himself to man. Most of these lessons are lost on the faithful. Another lesson that’s there for the taking by any discerning reader; the author of this story was not a talented writer. And if you try to tell me that god is the author of the Bible, then I must ask how it came to pass that god is so vastly inferior to Shakespeare (or Stephen King, for that matter).

As you may recall, the story begins with god bragging about how upright and perfect Job is. Satan answers that’s only because god protects Job and brings him endless good fortune. God essentially answers, “Is not!” and enters into a bet with Satan that Satan cannot make Job curse god.

Satan proceeds to arrange for the theft or killing of all of Jobs livestock, most of his servants, and finally his sons. Then Satan curses Job with boils all over his body. While it is perhaps Satan who does the direct damage to Job, god nevertheless admits his culpability when he says, “and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.” (Job 2:3) Notice the words “without cause” for they are important.

Several of Job’s friends arrive arrive at his house and, after a bit of quiet, try to enlighten him. Eliphaz the Temanite says, “Shall mortal man be more just than God?” (Job 4:17) Although Job doesn’t say it, the answer has to be “yes.” A mortal man may be just, but god certainly is not just in allowing Satan to destroy Job’s life “without cause.” Bildad the Shuhite makes the same mistake when he says, “Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice?” (Job 8:3). Isn’t what god allows Satan to do to Job a perversion of justice? Should the righteous man suffer the wrath of god and Satan “without cause?”

I know some Christian reading this will suggest here that god is acting for a “greater good.” I contend that this attitude is naive. The lesson or moral of the story would be identical had Job been lied to about his children’s deaths, or had they been abducted or become estranged from him and embittered. There was no need to murder Job’s children.

Bildad compounds his misunderstanding of god when he says, (Job 8:5-6) “If thou wouldest seek unto God betimes, and make thy supplication to the Almighty; If thou wert pure and upright; surely now he would awake for thee, and make the habitation of thy righteousness prosperous.” He also says, “Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers.” (Job 8:20) Wrong again, god is an accessory to Satan’s destruction of Job’s life.

Job somehow continues to respect god, yet he is perfectly aware that he doesn’t deserve the treatment he is getting. “For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.” (Job 8:17) One might even say that Job proves himself the better “man.” Also, “This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.” (Job 8:22)

From this point on the narrative becomes deadly boring! Job and his friends go on and on and on, “full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” As Job says at one point, “How long will ye vex my soul, and break me in pieces with words? These ten times have ye reproached me…” (Job 19:2-3)

My computer, with no help from me, suddenly redirected me to another site at one point and I lost my place while reading Job. Upon returning to it, I read over two chapters before I realized I had already read them. It was just a long tirade on how the wicked shall be treated by god. It was so mind numbing that it made no impression on my mind the first time I read it. How poorly, poorly written! As I proceeded through chapter 24, my eyes started to droop…and it’s morning; I’ve only been up for about 2 hours! However I am determined to get through the whole thing, so I start skimming. I understand that if you wish to drive a point home you might repeat it once or twice…but 47 times? Now you are just boring your reader, punishing him.

A couple passages, however, did jump out of this tedium. “And unto man he [god] said, Behold, the fear of the LORD, that is wisdom...” (Job 28:28) Yes, it does seem that the primary lesson of Job is that one should fear god. And, at the end of Chapter 31, this, “Let thistles grow instead of wheat, and cockle instead of barley. The words of Job are ended.” (Job 31:40) YES! Praise Zeus, He’s finally going to shut his mouth!

Ah, but then comes Chapter 31 wherein the young Elihu takes 22 verses just to say that he’s about to speak and Job and his friends should get ready. Man, this guy is as wordy as the old dudes! But that’s just the beginning. His monologue goes on for 7 chapters, that’s 160 verses. It doesn’t say whether he ever paused for breath.

I know some Christian reading this will suggest here that god is acting for a “greater good.” I contend that this attitude is naive. The lesson or moral of the story would be identical had Job been lied to about his children’s deaths, or had they been abducted or become estranged from him and embittered. There was no need to murder Job’s children. As Elihu speaks, he shows that he doesn’t know the score any better than the old men, as he says, “Therefore hearken unto me ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.” (Job 34:10) But isn’t it wicked to take everything away from Job and let Satan cover him with boils when Job has done nothing wrong? And even here, the “god experts” of yore, such as Elihu, claim to know the mind of god just as they do today.

Finally, in chapter 38, God has his say… and then some. He goes on for 71 verses about what business has Job got judging god? Was Job there when he laid the foundations of the earth? He goes through several dozen more questions of this sort, such as, “Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?” (Job 38:16) and “Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?” (Job 38:17) and “Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?” (Job 38:33) and so on and on. I despaired of counting these endless examples of Job’s supposed ignorance. God must think Job is terminally stupid if he requires several dozen examples to get the picture.

Job basically says he’s sorry in two verses, and then god starts in all over again. Finally, in chapter 42, god forgives Job and gives him back even more sheep, oxen, camels and asses than he had at the beginning. And then god gives Job seven more sons and three more daughters to replace the ones he had taken from Job in the beginning (though it is never explained what happened to the daughters).

Now replacing all Job’s camels, sheep, etc., and even increasing their number might seem almost fair, but who among us would think that our children can be replaced by another set of children? This is the ultimate indignity god visits on Job, and the point at which god (or the story’s author) proves he has no real understanding of man, as he assumes that he can just replace Job’s children by another set and all will be well. To any normal parent, his child’s life is more valuable than his own. No normal human parent thinks any child of his can be replaced. This really shows the ignorance of the author of Job. I’m guessing he was a bachelor, or only had daughters, which weren’t worth much to the sort of men who wrote the Bible.

Any useful, positive moral there might have been in the story of Job is rendered moot by the evil of a god consenting to the murder of a man’s children and then trying to make it right by giving him more children. It is a story of evil, of how a god may visit destruction on a man merely to win a bet. And why on earth does god feel like he has to prove a point to Satan anyway? Didn’t this god create the universe, and Satan himself, in 6 days? Yet, he goes on to destroy a man’s life and allow the murder of all of his children to prove this point. This god is not only evil, he is also unfathomably insecure.

The essential lesson of the Job story, the one believers are sadly oblivious to, is that the god in the story is not worthy of worship. He is, in fact, and literally, unbelievable.

Rocket Man

By Rudy --

Why do I read and write about atheism every day? Why do I love to find and collect bible verses that demonstrate that the character God is a sadistic, murdering, baby killing, slave promoting, misogynistic, and jealous jerk? Why do I spend hours every day on the computer reading and posting atheistic content, much to the chagrin of my wife and consternation of my non-atheist Face book friends?

Image via Wikipedia

I think it is because I am still unconsciously afraid of Hell.

I do not consciously believe in Hell, but I must still be unconsciously shivering in my boots about Hell; otherwise I would not need, want, and love to devour anti-theist readings. It is my passion. It is my drug.

I compare myself to a rocket trying to get out of the powerful gravitational pull of the planet religion. Every time I feel I have reached an easy cruising orbit, I feel like I am falling back down and I need another rocket boost of heretic heathen literature. When will I ever be in orbit, just cruising?

Although I have been an atheist since 1977, I have only had my boosters on for about six months. For 33 years, I have been flying around in an airplane at low altitude. I have read from other Ex-Christians that it can take a few years of deprogramming to eliminate the haunting doubts of my fear based childhood brainwashing.

In a way, I am enjoying this attempt at getting into a comfortable atheist orbit, because atheism is something about which I feel passionate and I have not experienced such an intellectual stimulation on one topic for this long. Part of me wants to continue firing my booster rockets, but without the Christian thoughts that haunt me.

The Time Has Come

By Neal Stone --

So here I am. Finally finding the courage to come out. Slowly, but surely. Not come out as gay, but as my current standing as an Agnostic-Atheist. It’s a slow process letting go of not believe in a deity.

I have currently setup my web site and announced it on Facebook. In the site I tell my story and what I believe and where I am headed. And yes I talk a bit about computers too. Hey I’m a geek though I deny the existence of Steve Jobs.

What happens next will be a long road. As I will have to explain to many what lead to this and why this route. I will get the usual questions and challenges from believers as well as the usual quotes about why they believe and what.

What I am looking for now is two things.

1. Visit my site and give me feed back. It’s still a work in progress so bare with me. But I am open to ideas and comments.
2. I want to know what the most common arguments, questions, challenges and quotes you get from Christians and how to refute them. How would you answer them in other words. I need to arm myself as the questions will come.

The name of my site is “Off The Narrow Road”. I am thinking of doing a book about my life as well with a similar title.

So visit my site at http://www.offthenarrowroad.com and let me know what you think. Look forward to seeing you there.

Neal Stone

PS. Thanks to all here who have been supportive of me.

Respect

By Simplex Munditiis --

Respect - noun; esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability: e.g. 'I have great respect for her judgement.'

Image by grantlairdjr via Flickr

There is a great deal of talk nowadays about 'respecting' this and 'respecting' that. We are told that we must 'respect' religion, even when we disagree with it. But why? Why must we respect something that is built upon dividing the human race into 'believers' and 'non-believers'? Why must we respect something that is so flawed at its core that it has caused some of the greatest conflicts in history?

I find we are constantly told that we must respect a person's beliefs; but a Marxist believes in communism, and I hardly need say how those beliefs are so often attacked, just as a Anarchists believes in anarchy, and that belief is also repeatedly picked apart, just as they themselves pick other beliefs and institutions, capitalism and government. Why should I be forced to respect religion, Christianity especially here in the West, when it doesn't respect me?

Some time ago, an Australian bishop, Catholic I think, called atheism a scourge, and said that the Second World War had been caused by it, that Stalin had mass-murdered his people because he was atheist, and that Kim-Jong Il and Mao Zedong are fine examples of the dangers of atheism. Ridiculous. Firstly Hitler's religion is a source of debate, and secondly (and most importantly) to say that these people did what they did because they were atheist is like saying that Stalin caused the famines in Russia because he was Russian. Atheism played no part in their iron-fisted rule (outside of when they directly attacked religion) they were motivated by the need to consolidate their rule, that they were atheist has little to do with it; arguably it could've been worse if they had been religious extremists. On the other hand, we have wars that were empirically proved to have been started, or justified, by religion, the Crusades being a prime example, the French Wars of Religion being another.

And why should I respect a religion that tries to enforce its flawed moral code onto me, and limit my freedom because they are, in their own words, 'worried about my soul'. I do not believe in their religion, so I should not have to pay taxes to fund religious institutes, nor should I be forced to swear oaths to God or have my children taught Creationism in school.

Lets imagine for a moment, that Christianity was the minority in society, and the majority of the population worshipped Santa as the great gift-giving god who annually on December 25th gives gifts to those good 'Santa-ists'(and if you got no gifts, then obviously you sinned). Now let's say these Santa-ists had support in government, and passed a law banning gift-giving on Christmas (Santa Day for Santa-ists) because they fear for everyone's souls since presuming to take Santa's place by giving gifts is a blasphemous sin. Not only that, but let's say with a wave of support they ban gift-giving altogether, to ensure that no one can 'play Santa' so to speak. I would now like to ask any Christian (and I know there are many that lurk this site) to think about how they'd feel. They don't believe in Santa, so why should they be banned from giving gifts just because the majority of Santa-ists are 'worried about their souls'? It is the same for Christians, why should they be allowed to force their beliefs onto people who don't believe? I would not presume to force people

So why? Why should religion (and I'm thinking especially of Christianity here) automatically be 'respected' when it won't respect others? Hell, most religions can't even respect other branches of their same religion, many Protestants hate Catholics, many Sunni hates Shiites. Just as Marxism is a belief (an economic belief but a belief nonetheless) that doesn't deserve automatic respect, but should deserve the respect that comes from careful analysis, so should Christianity, I respect what I have studied and approved of, not what I'm told I must simply because much of a supposedly secular government belongs to a certain religion.

God has verbally showed his Love to me

From Kare --

Hi everyone. I am so sorry to hear all the pain in your comments about how u do not believe in God.

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God is so real. I was hurting once to. God gave me Freedom. Freedom of Life, peace and extended his unconditional, Love acceptance, and Forgiveness.

There are alot of people that do confesss to b Christian and be judgeemental, critising, holier than thou, or just fake. I understand some of ur points. Then again non believers arent perfect either. non of us are, but God loves us w no strings attached.

Please dont remain in your unbelief. you dont have to do this or that, go to a certain church, or be perfect. God just desires a relationship w you. There are true Christians out there that will share the unconditional Love of God with you. please dont be angry at the things you have experienced in life.

I as well have an extremly painful and abusive past. I dont blame God. God only sends blessings and Freedom to us. We just have to repent , believe and recieve him. God has verbally showed his Love to me.

those who are hurting and havent gave up hope, and those of you that have gavin up; Pls. know that there is someone out there who is real, transparent, and true. Pls dont give up on God. He loves you and knows your heart, and feels your pain. Pls dont allow Satan to keep u n a place of fear and unbelief. I was there as well. I didnt recieve healing from God becuase of any certain person, cause people do let us down. I recieved healing and Freedom from the God who loves us and cares for u no matter what we have done in the past.

Feel free to write me if u desire to have a friend that will love u and care and pray for you, and not judge the things surrounding u.

I love u all and pray in Jesus name that you will recieve these words of encouragement and not personally attack me or God, there is help for the helpless, strength for the weak n for those who are sick of or even hate church. Not about church, is about relationship w God. God will be faithful and true to u w no strings attached.
I am not a part of any cult or group. I worship and Praise God and all he has done for me abd brought me out of. Life is amazingly sweeter w God in it.

Pls. dont turn him away bc of hurts and pains of your past.

its a New Day. y not start it with someone who loves you so much. rbbkab3127@hotmail.com im here for you, but pls respect me and not lash out on me ok? thank u.

Kareina
loves and smiles to u :)

Objects need no purpose to exist

By Neil --

I hear it quite frequently in the arguments of theists. If God does not exist, what is the purpose of the Universe? Why are we here? What is the meaning of life without God? As with any rhetorical question there is no answer to any of these inquiries.

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None based in reality anyway. Of course from the theist perspective, the answers are laid out in black and white and typically don't require a great deal of mental capacity to embrace. Because these questions have no basis in the physical realm they are used by theists to establish a baseline of uncertainty to an opposing view. You don't know why we're all here? Then you are ignorant to the truth so let me tell you about Jesus. Religion is nothing more than opinion and therefore it is all too easy to postulate artificial reasons for the existence of objects we perceive.

I submit to you that the Universe does not need a reason to exist. It needs no purpose to exist. It doesn't require permission to exist. It simply exists. In one form or another it has existed for a long time and my own ignorance of it's origin does not simply mean that I must accept the standard de facto Christian explanation. We as human beings don't exist for any purpose either. Sorry folks. Your purpose for existing may be a personal one but in the grand scheme of things, there is not one of us that is here for any specific reason. A rock laying in a stream bed does not need a reason to exist. It simply does. This is not to be confused with the method in which that rock got to it's current place in the world or even the function that rock may perform as part of a larger system.

Some would say that this is a dismal outlook however I don't hold myself to be anything more than what I am. There's nothing cosmically special about me. My perspective on the world remains cheerful and optimistic. I can appreciate the beauty of my surroundings and what it is to live the human experience. I just don't need to justify my place in the world. And this world doesn't need a reason to exist. It simply does.

Sunday Mornings

by Jody --

This is a poem I wrote. I was thinking about how I love my Sunday mornings now that I walk in the freedom of free thought.

Image by Pσweя σf Lσve ♥♥ via Flickr

I love Sunday mornings.
Slow, savory moments over my coffee....

or gathering my laptop and glasses
to go to the coffee shop and write.

Not rushing around to hurry off to church
so I can sit in tedious silence
in a big empty building
full of people.

This morning I am going to sit in stillness,
to reflect, to ponder, to wonder.
Pulling on my mud caked hiking boots,
I reach for
my water bottle, journal, sketch book and pens.
I am ready now for my
"church.”

Stretching my limbs in the morning sun,
I walk tall and strong
into the woods.....my sanctuary.
As the trees enfold me in the quiet of the early morning
I pause.

This is where I come to sit in awe,
to appreciate the hills and trees,
the woods and this moss covered ground that I love to tread.
The birdsong enlivens my soul,
the sun, just peeking through the trees finds my shoulders
and warms me from my head to my toes.

I breathe in the fresh air....filling my lungs
with the pure oxygen of liberty.

I am alive. Hallelujah, I am set free.

Delusions

By Carl S --

PART I

The Xtians that I know are fond of giving and hearing personal testimonies. That old confirmation-bias tango. But they don’t want to hear those to the contrary. Tough. They’ll never make progress that way, on that “ignorance is bliss” road.

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I had forgotten until recently, my time in the Trappist monastery, when readings were done during the communal meals. Religious texts, of course, one of the books being on the history of Western monasticism. The original monks were hermits who went into the desert to pray, fast, scourge themselves, and otherwise repent of their own and mankind’s sins. St. Anthony of the Desert stands out because of a famous story; one all-nighter of shrieks and chaotic disturbances reported by his neighbors were attributed to the saint’s struggles with the “forces of evil” (Sometime later - by psychiatric analysis - to the saint’s own personality.).

I was in the monastery in the early 1950s. In 1960, I was aged 22 and stationed with the U.S. Army in West Germany. My company had been out in the wilds, on maneuvers, for three days and nights without sleep. That third night, I was dropped off on the edge of a wood and told to stay there on guard duty. Alone in the silent dark, I had several of my fellow soldiers come around and talk to me personally. Not just their voices, for their entire presences were there. But I was alone the whole time.

Driving back to Ohio from California, once again alone and anxious to get back, I again went for days without sleep. On one of those nights, I encountered a wall the size of the Berlin Wall, stretched across the road in front of me, and slammed on the brakes. When I opened my eyes, there was no wall. Years later, I read the testimony of a country doctor who made so many calls in a row that he had the same experience with a “wall.”

I once worked for days on end with two eight-hour jobs, snatching sleep when I could. One day I told my co-workers that they had a free day coming up, and that the notice was posted on the bulletin board in the hallway. One of them went to see, and came back with the conclusion that I saw it on my other job. And here I was absolutely sure I saw it there.

One doesn’t have to be mentally ill to be confused, addled, or delusional at times. Any man who goes into the desert alone to fast, deprive himself of sleep, have only his own thoughts and ideas as a frame of reference, is messing with his mind and sanity - whether it’s for five years, five months, or forty days.There are times when, very tired and nodding off, I realize I’m in a place between reality and dreams, where they fade in and out of each other, trading places. Interestingly, the brainwashing methods in the Korean War depended mostly on sleep deprivation.

Brainwashing methods in Mao’s Red China consisted of placing the subjects under such emotional and physical/psychological duress that some went insane and/or committed suicide, or, as the programmers hoped, became fanatical believers, thoroughly committed true believers who could not be otherwise convinced. (Something like Jesus Camp.)

Related to these things is my experience in dealing with my older brother, living alone in Arizona after the death of his parents. He would phone me, talk coherently, and then ramble off into nonsense. One day, I got a call from another brother saying that “Ray fell down and broke his hip, and is in the hospital”. Later on, my brother reported that Ray went into a coma after the operation, and died shortly thereafter. The county spokesperson called several times regarding the disposition of the properties and will. She said that she had personally been in the house and that there were bottles of vodka everywhere, some half full, some never opened. She also made the point that alcoholic beverages were the “drug of choice for his generation.”

PART II

Why does this information (which can be verified by reading about sleep deprivation, brainwashing and alcoholic delusions) belong on a Christian or Ex-Christian site? Here’s why. One doesn’t have to be mentally ill to be confused, addled, or delusional at times. Any man who goes into the desert alone to fast, deprive himself of sleep, have only his own thoughts and ideas as a frame of reference, is messing with his mind and sanity - whether it’s for five years, five months, or forty days. He may well lose sight of the boundary between reality and fantasy, even fabricate his own realities, all the while thinking himself sane and maybe even enlightened. That goes for Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, St. John on Patmos, and St. Anthony of the Desert. It’s the mind-body connection, stupid!

I know people who live alone and have peculiar ways of thinking and judging, and I believe it’s reasonable to conclude that they just don’t have someone nearby for reality checks. And was “Revelation” written by someone not only all alone but on psychedelic substances? And maybe the Mormon and Moslem religions forbid alcoholic drinks lest their adherents discover the sources of those visions, prophesies, and interpretations of life?

I’ve been there with alcohol, and won’t go where drugs will screw things up. I enjoy living fully, eyes wide open, facing all the good, bad, ugly and beautiful alike. Booze and drugs would ruin everything. Sans chemicals and the drugged state of religious euphoria, life is really good, even if I’m dying, as we all are. Maybe it’s the mind-body connection.

Unplugged from the Matrix

By Nick Hargreaves --

Religion taught me more than anything else that it doesn’t matter what evidence you have , or what your calculations are, as long as it is stated in the bible it is true.

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So even though my knowledge continued to increase and even though science taught me that something can’t be said to be a fact unless you prove it, religion always had its way with me. My greatest solace came from the read:

Proverbs 3:5 (New International Version)
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

So when I read that dinosaur bones are dated to be as old as hundreds of millions of years (from studies that have taken place for decades, involving a lot of calculations and precariously crafted instruments), I told myself “the devil must have put the bones there to make them look like The Holy Bible is wrong”.

Then came astronomy, the big bang theory, stellar distances,…I said “Fuck it!” About the same time I realized something, all along I had taken the bible as the absolute truth. I never questioned where it came from, how it was written(though at sabbath school we were told the holy spirit used men to write it). I did my research, watched a few documentaries and behold! I became free!

When you wake up everyday praying for something that you never get, when you see innocent people and children out there dying of hunger, diseases and even religion inspired murders, when you see immoral people always having their way and what you are told is that no matter what happens, no matter who gets what, no matter how it goes always know that it is god’s will; you have to wake up and smell the coffee.

That god you pray to is the same god that people hundreds of decades back prayed to, a mythical creature that was invented when human knowledge was at its infancy, when the stars were believed to be gods, the earth was thought to be flat and that a fiery place beneath earth existed where the devil lives. You will need a lot of effort convincing yourself that evolution didn’t happen, or stars are 6,000 years old. In fact you will need so much less effort to believe in Santa than an omnipotent god who created self and everything else, who watches everything and every event that happens does so in his will. I just ain’t that creative with imaginary friends.

The Children of Levi in the Modern Age

By Mark Roma --

I was born as the result of the intervention of Jesus in the sex lives of my parents, and his "hand of influence" has cast a shadow over most of my life.

Image by Jocelyn Catterson via Flickr

In the 1970's an entire class of wild ex-hippie types realized that free love and drugs weren't the path to happiness. In their quest for sustainable personal fulfillment, my parents abandoned moderate thinking in order to swing from a hedonistic lifestyle to one of almost monastic structure.

They abandoned "secular" music, coffee and soda, their class rings and yearbooks, any text other than the Bible, and their right to question in order to be accepted into the cult like environment of Charismatic Christianity.

Instead of hashish and marijuana, my parents found their highs in "speaking in tongues," visions and prophecy. They laid their hands on the sick in full faith that God would heal, and He did not.

When I was born, I was prophesied over by eloquent pastors and prophets. I would be a leader of God's chosen, they told my parents, a man of great love and integrity. Who can say how many other parents heard the same things about their children. I only know that my earliest memories were shaped by these expectations.

They sent my brother and I to a Christian private school where, in classes meant to center on the science of biology, we were taught that man and dinosaur coexisted, and that evolution was an intricate lie created by unbelievers. From 10 to 18 I heard daily the pontifications of power-mad spiritual leaders who insisted that the war of Armageddon was happening, that the "end of days" is neigh.

We were taught that the day would come when atheists put guns to our heads and sent us to Heaven for our loyalty to God.

When I graduated from high school, I was lost and alone. I had no professional direction, no understanding of how to plan finances or a career (I hadn't planned on the Earth existing for more than another decade or so) or how to create social and romantic relationships with people outside religious environments.

I floundered in a cycle of doubt, self loathing created by that doubt, and repentance until I realized that I could not win. My mind would not cease to question, and could not be forced selectively to quiet itself to all the inconsistencies and injustices of the religious world.

At first I created qualifications and exceptions that allowed me a chance at post mortal bliss: I was a Christian minus the hatred for followers of other religions, the condemnation of gays and unwed mothers, or the belief that unbelievers or innocent children should burn in Hell for all eternity. Then my exceptions broadened to include a serious doubt in the Church system itself, cynicism about transubstantiation and a dislike for "speaking in tongues" and other Charismatic affectations.

I reconnected, through the wonders of the internet, with other classmates who wrestled with these doubts, and found many common threads and experiences. When honesty began to flow, I saw one very frightening statistic come to light.

Over a quarter of the people from my high school who would speak freely about such things were molested.

Whether it happened at home, by relatives, or by teachers at the school each of these people had their childhood destroyed and ruined within the confines of the Christian Church.

For years I had thought I was alone in this experience, that only I had fallen prey to this social rot, and that perhaps somehow I was to blame for the victimization I had endured as a child.

I now believe, with all my heart, that something in the structure of organized religion nurtures abuse of all kinds. Having men responsible for the spiritual welfare of other men, or having men ultimately able to justify their actions to an invisible Super-being with mysterious methods and motives basically allows the entire concept of responsibility and morality to unravel. I'm part of a generation that suffered greatly at the hands of men who felt it was within their power to forgive each other of child abuse, and decided that there was no need to involve the police or the courts to protect us. They were the servants of a "higher way," and their beliefs justified some of the most disgusting evil on the face of this planet.

I proudly stand, divested of the trappings of Christianity, to say that I am a Human, an upstanding citizen and a man of great morality and integrity. In a sad way, what I am today proves all those childhood prophesies to be true, though I alone am responsible for my actions, and the God of my parents has had no hand in who I am today.

No god, No peace

By eveningmeadows --

No god, No peace
Know god, Know peace

I saw this saying on the t-shirt of one of the youth leaders in my last church.

Image by cwalker71 via Flickr

It certainly was catchy and got my attention. At the time I thought it was right on and had a message that was pretty straightforward in a catchy play on words. I thought that believing and following god was the way to attain peace of mind. Strange thing, I never really had that peace.

A few weeks ago the slogan came to mind again. I started playing around with it, and came up with this one:

Know god, No peace.
No god, Know peace.

I couldn’t believe how it just put everything in place. As an Xtian, I was always worrying about trying to please god. What about those people that god had brought into my life to witness to? Were they going to hell because I had failed or was too embarrassed to find some way to tell them hey, by the way you’re going to hell and need Jesus as your savior? Yeah, that was always difficult for me. Then I was constantly worrying about my thoughts. I didn’t really like this one, or that one annoyed me, or no way was I ever going to work with that one again. And of course gossiping is always a weakness when a bunch of women get together, but it was so much fun!

I always hated prayer meetings; I hated prayer time in bible studies. It was sooo boring and why bother when nothing ever seemed to happen anyway.

I didn’t like praise and worship time before church. That was boring too, the same hymns and songs over and over every week. Some people did seem to get something out of all the singing with their hands raised over their head, and their eyes closed, in a conservative Baptist church no less. But for me, it was just an ordeal I had to get over. I remember asking a question in a bible study when the topic of worship was being talked about. This woman was upset because the time before church when the music was being played was supposed to be a time for us to get our hearts ready to receive god’s message and to worship him. Of course, most people used that time as a social event to meet their friends! How horrible! I never did understand the concept of worshiping something that didn’t feel real even then. I said, “What are we supposed to be doing during this worship time, chanting or what.” I just couldn’t understand what all the fuss was about. She really seemed to be having this bonding time with her god. I just didn’t feel anything.

On top of all that, there was this anxiety that no matter what I did, no matter how many times I confessed a sin, I was never good enough for god. I never could conquer my basic nature. I was who I was no matter what I did.

Then there were the “why” questions. Why would god allow pain and suffering? How were we supposed to learn something from all the hardships in our lives if god didn’t tell us what we were being punished for, why we were being tested, what was building character. I always had to guess. Could it be because I enjoyed spending my extra money on yarn at Michaels than tithing to the church? How was I supposed to know these things?

How can constant guilt and second guessing ourselves really bring us peace of mind? No matter what I did, there was god over my shoulder angry at me for some reason. I’ve always wondered why some people can just focus on Jesus loves me and never worry about the sin in their lives. How can we have peace when loved ones are in hell or will be going to hell because they didn’t follow the right and true religion? Will my children stay with the right religion or will they end up in hell because I failed to be the perfect Xtian mother?

How can we have peace when horrible things happen to people in the world that god can but chooses not to stop? None of the answers ever made sense to me. These are the explanations that I’ve heard in the past, god doesn’t hear the prayers of non believers, they’re not a part of the one true religion, god can’t interfere in the free will of people even if they choose to be evil, to bring about character, to punish, to teach others, on and on. None ever made sense to me. God can help someone find a good parking space at the mall, or chicken breast on sale, but can’t help a child that is being abused? How can one ignore these questions and have peace of mind?

Now that I’ve walked away from religion, and found this site that shows me I’m not crazy for doing so, I can say I’m finally getting peace in my life. I can just live day to day, and if that means just focusing on my family now and then, so be it. I’m not going to hell, neither has any of my family members nor will they in the future. I can enjoy the short time I’ve been given in this life without any guilt. I’m finding that I’ve forgotten how to just relax and enjoy the moment for what it holds, to clear my mind and not worry about what I should be doing to please a god that can never be pleased.

I am not happy submitting to slavery anymore

By S --

I had a really positive experience growing up as a Christian. I was never forced, pressured, or even guilted by my parents, who seemed pretty traumatized by their own Christian upbringings. I went to church with my Grandmother, who was truly a wonderful and spiritual person.

Image by Ben Cooper via Flickr

I looked up at her and saw what a wonderful person she was, and her belief in God and light naturally rubbed off on me. Later on she died, and our church got a new pastor eventually, and I stopped going. I have never found a church since that spoke to me quite the way my childhood one did.

My church never really condemned Gays, or imposed ridiculous judgments, or focused on evolution or anything controversial (I don't think anyone cared really, we weren't focused on judgment). This is why it is so hard for me now, to give up this religion that I now realize is bad for me personally.

For years I saw lots of problems in other churches, and I simply decided I wanted none of this crazy judgmental Christian stuff in my own relationship with God and Jesus. I still called myself a Christian, but I knew other churches would not have agreed. I honesty did feel a very special relationship with God. To this day I do think there is something bigger than me alive and in this world, that I don't understand.

In the last few years I have realized something in my life needs to change; I feel very frustrated in my own life.

A couple days ago I realized that my own ideas about Christianity have hindered my life. In Christianity, there is a sort of promise of reward for hard work and devotion. This sort of "heavenly reward" penetrated all areas of my life and culture. An American dream, that if we work hard at life, and are good people, we will be happy and our dreams (if we only work at them!) will come true. This mentality has lead me to neglect my own desires, and instead focus on work, with the hope of eventual gratification. I have sacrificed a lot in my life to do what I thought would eventually lead to a great life. I did this to the point of neglecting my own needs as a person, my soul is badly hurt, all for the hope that one day I will be happy. This is all crap, because, I can be happy now.

When I look at it, this sort of delayed gratification mentality is great for the purpose of enslavement. This is the perfect thing for people to believe for them to be perfectly voluntarily enslaved. "I will work hard, with no expectation for reward, and when I die, if I am good, I will go to heaven, or maybe even Jesus will come back suddenly and then reward my sacrifice." It helped me put off confronting my real problems. Even the belief that we should be like him, Jesus, sacrificing ourselves. Often this is laced with a guilt about who we are, we HAVE SINNED, it is proclaimed. Yes, if you wish to control a group of people, just get them to believe in this mentality.

I am not happy submitting to slavery anymore. I want to live for myself. I want to enjoy my day. I want to live for today, and not feel incredibly sad when I die, realizing I wasted my life sacrificing for a tomorrow I never reached. I can no longer care if there is a heaven, and I have to say good bye to Christianity.

This is hard for me because it feel so sentimental. Like an old lamp you grew up with in your bedroom. You look at it everyday, and it's hard to get rid of. I was comfortable being a Christian, if gave me a good feeling, and I won't say Christianity is evil. It's just not what is good for me, and I have a right to chose these things for myself. It's a little scary saying goodbye, but what's happening now feels good. I'm excited about the future.

I am not a C!
I am not a C-H!
I am not a C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N Anymore!

Pastor charged with cyber stalking

Pastor Jim Reynolds

MANSFIELD – A local Baptist preacher was arrested Tuesday on three counts of cyber stalking after members of his former congregation accused him of sending threatening e-mails and text messages.

Jim Reynolds, 55, of the 200 block of Wildwood in Mansfield, was freed from the DeSoto Detention Center after posting a bond totaling $3,156 through Eagle Bail Bonds.

Reynolds, former pastor of Graceway Baptist Church in the Carmel community, was arrested on warrants that three church members secured through a justice of the peace. They accuse Reynolds of making threats and sending harassing messages primarily through repeated e-mails. Some text messages also were sent, DeSoto sheriff’s Cpl. Dusty Herring said.

The communications included phrases such as “You’ll pay for this” and “Screw you,” Herring said.

Reynolds has been involved in an ongoing controversy with church members after he was released from his pastoring duties about two months ago. Herring said he tried to work with Reynolds after the initial verbal complaints were received last month. Reynolds did not follow through with requests to meet with investigators about the complaints.

When he did finally show up – after another family member intervened - at the sheriff’s office, Reynolds “accused (the complainants) as much as they accused him,” Herring said.

District Judge Charles Adams issued a no contact order as a condition of Reynolds’ bond. If Reynolds has any contact with the complainants his bond will be revoked immediately and he’ll be jailed until trial, Herring said.

STORY LINK

Love is My Religion

Steps to Recovery

Here's a short video I made about aspects of recovering from harmful religious experience.

Image by nevermindtheend via Flickr

Let me know what you think.

Warmly,

Marlene Winell

Pastor charged with assault and battery

Newport News police have arrested a Newport News pastor on two misdemeanor charges of assault and battery and a felony charge of abduction.

The charges stem from an incident in Virginia Beach.

Police say Thurman Randolph Leonard, 48, of Hampton Avenue, was involved in a dispute with an unidentified female family member on July 15 at a home on Summerville Court in Virginia Beach, police said.

STORY LINK

Pastor charged with child abuse

Jason Bolton

Prince William County police have arrested a former youth pastor on charges that he carried on a sexual relationship with a 17-year-old girl in his church group.

Jason Bolton, 32, of Dumfries, began a close friendship with the girl in September 2007, police said. By early 2010, the relationship had become romantic.

Bolton, a married man with two sons and a daughter, began as a youth pastor at Potomac Crest Baptist Church in 2007. He resigned in May after the sexual allegations came to light.

In a first person profile on the church's Web site, Bolton says he was called by Jesus Christ to serve at the church after ministering to students at the University of Delaware, where he studied art in the late 1990s.

“I am not perfect and I make mistakes every day,” Bolton says in the profile that has since been removed. “My hope is that through my life I can help show youth that Jesus Loves them and that He wants them so much that He died for them.”

Bolton was being held on a $3,000 secured bond on a charge of sodomy. A court date has not been set, officials said.

STORY LINK

Ex-Christian experiences book

From James Smith --

I am an ex-Christian who is preparing a book on the experiences of ex-Christians with the practices and doctrines of Christianity. The book, which I plan on publishing in 2011, will deal with the basic practices that are common to Christianity (heaven/hell, sin, healings and speaking in tongues, the belief that God knows what we think) and look at their effect on the emotional and mental health of Christians and in particular young Christians.

I am a researcher in European public policy at a very well known English University, but am writing this book as a private individual and alongside my other academic research interests given the experiences that I had with Christianity as a child and young adult. Like many of the testimonies I read, I was badly emotionally exploited by Christians and Christianity and suffered from an intense fear of hell, fear of committing the unforgivable sin, and also hallucinated about the presence of Satan in my house.

I would be very interested in receiving the testimonies of ex-Christians. I would potentially (and pseudonymously) include these testimonies in the book. I am particularly interested in the following topics,

• Ex-Christians who were very fearful of going to hell or of their non-Christian friends and family going there

• Ex-Christians who were scared that God knew about their thoughts

• Ex-Christians who felt unable to balance their doubts/belief in science with their faith

• Ex-Christians who felt themselves excessively burdened by the lifestyle requirements of Christianity (i.e. no sex before marriage/no excessive drinking or drugs)

• Ex-Christians who were damaged by charismatic/Pentecostal practices like tongues/healings/slain in the spirit

• Ex-Christians who were psychologically damaged by Christianity in another way

However, I would be extremely interested in receiving ALL testimonies from ex-Christians and would be exceptionally grateful if readers of Exchristian.net could be kind enough to send me their experiences. Further, if people would be willing to let me use their testimonies and they are listed on Exchristian.net then I would also be very grateful if individuals could merely email me giving me permission to do this. All emails will be treated strictly confidentially and, if included in the book, pseudonyms will be used for the ex-Christians concerned. The address testimonies should be sent to is, Exchristiantestimonies@hotmail.co.uk


For individuals willing to help me, I would be pleased to share more details of the project, and to keep them updated concerning the progress of the book.


James Smith

Billboard Battle in Bible Belt: One Nation 'Under God' or Not?

Evangelicals Say Removal of 'Under God' in Pledge Ignores Faith's Role in U.S. History

Deep in the heart of the Bible Belt, a dispute over God and country is being waged very publicly.

It all started when an atheist group decided to remind people of the history of the Pledge of Allegiance by putting up six billboards around the state of North Carolina, in honor of the July Fourth holiday. One was placed even on Billy Graham Parkway in Charlotte.

The signs read "One nation indivisible," a reference to the Pledge of Allegiance but deliberately omitting the words "under God."

The billboards, paid for by the North Carolina Secular Association, a coalition of groups including the Western North Carolina Atheists, were intended to show that even Americans who don't believe in God can be patriotic and to promote a sense of unity.

The group points out that the words "under God" were not in the original pledge, which was written in 1892. Congress added them to the pledge in 1954 -- as America was locked in the Cold War with communist and atheist Russia.

Jennifer Lovejoy, a spokeswoman for the secular association, said including the words "under God" was discriminatory.

"I don't believe in God and I don't believe that our country was founded on Christianity or any religion," she said. "I'm not taking away anyone's belief in God. Many of our forefathers feared God, but I think they feared religion more -- and what it could do to the country if any one religion was allowed to be in control."

"Any religious reference excludes people and we're a government of the people, for the people and by the people," said Asheville City Councilmember Cecil Bothwell. Bothwell, a self-described "post-theist," was not involved in the campaign but supports the billboards.

In Asheville, N.C., where one of the billboards stands, the Rev. Ralph Sexton, pastor of Trinity Baptist Church, is fighting back -- with his own billboards and help from the church coalition We Still Pray.

Evangelicals Vs. Atheists in Billboard Battle Over Patriotic Pledge

"We felt we couldn't just look the other way," Sexton said. "It was important enough to stop and say that needs to be answered."

Sexton and We Still Pray, a group founded to support prayer in public schools, immediately responded with four digital billboards that bore the message: "One nation, under God."

"The biggest thing that bothered me as a person of faith was I thought, at best, it was disingenuous. ... Our very Constitution, our law system, everything is built upon the word of God," Sexton said.

Sexton disagreed with the assertion that having those words on U.S. currency and in the Pledge of Allegiance made atheists feel left out.

"It's political correctness gone amok. Silliness," he said.

Sexton's digital messages will remain for a month.

"We are a people of faith. We are a nation that is built on Christian principles and we need to make sure our children, our grandchildren, our teenagers, our young adults, know what we're really all about," he said.

The atheist group said it may put up more billboards in the future.

STORY LINK

The Origin and Evolution of Religion

Sent in by dealdoctor --

Atheist biologist Richard Dawkins introduced philosopher Daniel Dennett at the British Humanist Society for a lecture on the subject of the origin and evolution of religion.

If you have ever wondered about these things:

1. How and why did religion got started in the first place?
2. What has kept some religions going for thousands of years while other religions have gone extinct?
3. Why have the religions have undergone so much change since their early days?
4. What are the various possible changes in the role of religion in the future of the world?

Oh, the irony

by Tara --

I was raised in a very Christian home. I was baptized at two weeks old, just one day after being released from the hospital. I went to a private Christian preschool and kindergarten and hardly ever missed a Sunday service. Yet even with all of the Christian influences in my life I found myself questioning god at a very early age. I remember being in kindergarten and wondering why the Christianity and the dinosaurs didn't go together. As I got older I wondered where god came from. The answer that he was "timeless" just didn't suit me. And if there was a god, and he loved us, then why did he allow so much evil in the world? Why are there children starving in Africa? What about the people who live in countries where people are raised in other religions without hearing much about Christianity, would they go to hell even though it's not their fault they were raised to believe in a different religion?

Even as a child I knew that that something wasn't right. As I grew older the things that I was learning in church really didn't make much more sense, but I pushed it out of my mind and tried to dedicate myself to god fully. But I always had this feeling that it was all lies. I remember being in the eighth grade and being at a back to school party at my church. My friends were joking around about being freshmen "fish" when one of them turned to me and said "I guess since you're in the eighth grade you should be called 'eighth grade atheist.'" One of the girls standing near us immediately said "Oh, you're an atheist; I cant be friends with you." I told her that I wasn't an atheist, and that I believed in the Christian god, but what she had said to me just stunned me. If I had been an "eighth grade atheist" at church, wouldn't she have wanted to befriend me? To shun someone because of a belief didn't seem very "Christian" to me.

As I entered high school I began to see a lot more hypocrisy in the church. Not only within my youth group, but within the adults attending as well. In fact it seemed as if the adults were the ones the thrived on drama and talking badly about others.

I began to "drift" away from the church even though I was attending different activities at the church several times a week. Church began to become more of an annoyance than a fun time. Time passed and I went to college, by then I stopped believing in a personal god. In the back of my mind I knew that there was no god, but I felt guilty turning my back on the religion I had been raised in for so long.

It wasn't until October 2009 when I was on YouTube that a video of Kirk Cameron caught my eye. I clicked on it and began to watch as Kirk spread blatant lies about Christians being denied basic rights, and about Darwin, and listening to those lies just pushed me over the edge. Something snapped that day and I realized that it was all a bunch of, pardon me, crap. I went to my library and checked out a copy of the "Origin of Species" and began to read about evolution. Next I started learning about the Big Bang (seeing as to how I got the "Texas Christian" version in school), and as I read and started to actually learn some real science, it all made sense. Taking god out of the equation made everything that I had ever questioned make sense. So I would like to thank Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort and all of the wonderful people at the "Way of The Master" for putting out that commercial that finally pushed me over the edge and brought me to the truth.

All I have to say is, Oh... the irony!

Doing Humanistic Evangelistic "Ministry"

By Larry C --

I live in Gainesville, Florida. Gainesville is a college town and is the home of The University of Florida. The general educational level of people in this community is rather high.

Gainesville has a number of churches but they tend to be rather liberal or mildly evangelical. Hard-core fundamentalist religion is rare here, but it does exist.

Our most fanatical fundamentalist church is a charismatic congregation called The Dove Outreach Center Church. They have posted signs in front of their building that read: "Islam Is Of The Devil." When members of Fred Phelp's Westboro Baptist Church came through town to do their rude, crude protests outside places of worship, they were universally condemned by the our local liberal and conservatives churches, but there was one exception: The Dove Outreach folks joined with the Westboro loonies in their protests!

On July 4th, I was driving down University Avenue here in Gainesville and I was surprised to see a crowd of protesters standing in front of the Islamic Center holding up all kinds of derogatory and inflammatory signs that had messages on them "Islam Is Of The Devil," "Jesus Is The Only Way," "Islam the New Nazism," "Incorrect Tolerance Destroys Our Nation," "Shariah Law is Evil," "Stop Islamic Terrorism," and "Obama is a Moslem". I stopped my car walked over to talk to them. I wasn't angry at them; actually, I was actually bemused by their actions. I understood where they were coming from because thirty years before, I had their same mentality.

I got into a lengthy discussion with one of their young ministers by the name of Dave. He was well spoken and struck me as someone who had some intelligence. I could see my former self in him: earnest, sincere and truly believing that what he was doing was meant to help people find "truth". I know folks like these cause the blood of free-thinkers and humanists to boil, but I actually felt compassion for them. I viewed them as being trapped by their lack of knowledge, education and as persons who had been subjected to a ton of fear, paranoia and guilt by the pastor of their church. They are doing what they are doing because they lack understanding. I saw their protest as an opportunity to "come let us reason together."

I introduced myself to Dave and told him that I was an ex-Pentecostal preacher, that I had a degree in Bible from a pentecostal liberal arts college, and went on to obtain a seminary degree. I informed him that thirty years before, I would have readily joined in the type of activity they are doing. I calmly told him that I knew that they were "sincere" in their beliefs. I started off by following these words by confessing that when I had their outlook I thought I knew a lot but I discovered that I actually did not understand the Christian faith I so confidently proclaimed at that time.

Dave asked me why I had changed and I quickly ran through the following points:

1. I knew that to his faith, having it based on the Bible is basis for all his beliefs and actions and that he believes "God" gave us The Bible as his final word for what we are to believe and how we are to behave. I told him that I discovered in my studies that the Christian church has never agreed on exactly what is "the Word of God". The Protestants have their version; the Roman Catholic have their canon; the Ethopian Coptic Church - which is one of the oldest Christian churches - also have their own unique canon. Why didn't God give us a clear cut body of sacred scripture? I urged him to study the historical processes involved in developing the Bible and he would find that exactly what is "the word of God" is more difficult to ascertain than he ever imagined.

2. This issue of the problem with the authority of the Bible then becomes murkier when it comes to the development of what Christians are suppose to believe. I urged him to read a good indepth history of the first four centuries of the Christian church: "What you will discover is that those early Christians debated and fought over every issue that Christians today believe had always been settled. The early Christians fought over who is Jesus, his nature, his resurrection, what his death meant." Dave responeded by saying that those differences were due to those heretical groups which were not "orthodox" in their doctrine. I responded by saying that what became "orthodox" doctrine was due in large part to which group got the ear of the king, who then enforced a standardization of Christian belief and practice. Those groups who did not conform had their churches burned and priests executed. And again, a good close reading of early church history will show that politics - and not God - played a huge part in how we come to view what is right doctrine and what is considered heretical.

3. The ethical contradiction of a supposedly all loving God setting up a plan of salvation in which 99.99999999% of humanity will not make the grade and will spend all eternity being tortured w/ hell-fire, makes no sense at all: "Couldn't this loving heavenly father come up with a better salvation scheme that insures people get 'saved' instead of one in which people are largely assured to be damned?" I told Dave that I considered myself a compassionate person, and that as a fundamentalist believer I was told that God's love is so much greater than any love I could ever muster towards another; but then I pointed out to him that I would never want even my worst enemy to spend all eternity writhering in pain from an eternal burning fire. Does this mean that me, a mere human, has more love and compassion than almighty God?

2. The gospels don't agree. The picture presented of Jesus in the "synoptic gospels" of Matthew, Mark and Luke is different that the Jesus who is presented in The Gospel of John. In the Synoptics, just who Jesus is is ambiguous. Jesus does not answer directly what his relationship to "the Father" exactly is. However, in The Gospel of John, Jesus is reported to have told those who asked who he is that: "I am the way, the truth and the life; no man comes to the Father but by me." The Gospel of John is chocked full of great versus used by evangelicals, but it more than likely contains the least amount of authentic historical material than any of the gospels.

3. The images of God contradict each other. In the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), we see that God is capricious in "His" decisions; gets easily pissed off at "His" creatures and has a black-and-white attitude towards fixing problems: kill them all and lets start over!
Whereas, Jesus presents images of the "God" as a more caring and loving parent. This shows that "God" has changed over time.

4. I closed out my own humanistic testimoney/critique by saying that the Bible reflects the primitive times in which it was written; and though it has some great words of wisdom, and in places some useful ethical insights, it is to diverse and contradictory to be considered the result of a supposedly perfect, all-knowing mind of one being (unless that being could be diagnosed as having a thought disorder).

I also encouraged Dave to go study at an actually accredited university and not attend "Brother Joe's Bible College" and to think that by attending such an institution that he has all he needs to know about the bible and the Christian faith. I also offered that he and I go have a cup of coffee and discuss these issues more.

One thing that struck me was that Dave listened to my comments. He offered his own reasons, but our conversation was civil. I intentionally tried to not display any hostility, sarcasm or personal dislike towards him for his beliefs. I like to think that he was open to what I was saying and that my comments were hitting home. I'm hoping he will contact me and we can talk further and have that cup of coffee.